From Caretaking to Connection: Building a Business of Healing Through Listening With Deb Porter

In this episode of the "Nickels and Dimes: Finding Financial Freedom" podcast, host Natalie Kime welcomes Deb Porter, a United Methodist pastor and active listening expert. They discuss the emotional challenges of caregiving, particularly Deb's experience with her husband's health issues. Deb emphasizes the importance of active listening and creating safe spaces for emotional expression. Natalie shares her own caregiving and financial stress experiences, highlighting the significance of empathy and support. The episode underscores the transformative power of being heard and validated, encouraging listeners to foster a culture of understanding and compassion in their communities.

• Caregiving and its emotional challenges
• The significance of active listening in providing support
• Mental health awareness and the stigma surrounding it
• Personal experiences of caregivers and their journeys
• The importance of creating a safe space for emotional expression
• The concept of the emotional scale and its relevance in therapy
• The role of community support in caregiving
• The disconnect between listening and hearing in communication
• Strategies for effective emotional support without offering solutions
• The metaphor of kintsugi as a symbol of healing and value in experiences

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Transcript

0:02

Welcome to the Nickels and Dimes Finding Financial Freedom podcast. I'm your host, Natalie Kime, and today I have a very special guest Deb Porter that I'm really excited to have a conversation with. Deb and I met recently because I posted in a women's group that we're both a part of about a caretaking webinar I was going to be doing in April. She reached out, we connected and had a great conversation and Deb's background in her own life, and the work she does resonated so much for me and where I'm at in this point in my life, and this being Mental Health Awareness Month, I thought even more valuable to have her join me for a podcast episode and talk about her journey and the work she does. Now, let me just tell you a little bit more about Deb real quick. She is an expert in active listening for over 25 years. She's the founder of Hold hearing about life drama. She helps people discover the power of listening in their personal and professional lives. Deb teaches active listening and emotional intelligence, resulting in positive communication outcomes. She provides a safe, non-judgmental space so that those who use hold confidential listening service gain clarity and find relief from overwhelming situations. Deb, welcome to the show! I am so excited you're here! I'm so excited that you said yes, and I can't wait for people to hear about this conversation. Thank you so much for having me. Natalie, I'm so excited. I loved our first conversation and I'm excited to invite your listeners in now as well. Yes, let's jump into it. But before we get right to the meat of this, I have an icebreaker question, and I never give anybody a heads up. Okay? I haven't done this in a little while, but if you could be any superhero, Deb, Who would you be and why? Oh, a superhero question. Oh, this takes me back to when my kids were little. This was a common question then. Um. Are you. I don't know. Maybe, um. I don't know if you're familiar with the X-Men. Yes, I love the X-Men. Yeah. So for me, it would be the X-Men. And, um, the founder. Um, is it Xavier? He's in the wheelchair. Yes, yes. I, I want his superpower. Oh, my gosh, that would be incredible. Mhm. Yep. Tell me a little bit about why. So I think it's because I'm just so drawn to how he builds community around him and how he lifts up, lifts other people. It's not even so much about his, his superpower. It's the superpower that I see under the superpower. Right? Yes. For me. Yeah. I love that. I mean, that brings up a really important point, too, that the communities that we create around us, or that we insert ourselves inside of are so absolutely important. And you're right, that is what he beyond his superpower. That's what he did and probably his real strength. Right? That's what I saw. Yes. Yeah yeah yeah I love that I love that. Well thank you for that. I always like to throw something out there. I think it kind of gives people an insight into who we are and maybe kind of some of the things we value when we talk about those, those aspects we see in some of those superheroes in the work that they do. So I want to jump in, and we're going to start the conversation with a little bit of your caregiving background, which is really when I posted about that webinar last month, that's really where you kind of connected with me from. And then we got together to chat about that, and I figured out what it is that you do and how special I think that is. So I want to kind of lead into our conversation today talking about the caretaking background. Tell me, was there a moment in your life when listening became more than just a skill? Something that was deeply personal to you? So my background in training for the listeners who don't know me. Um, I was a United Methodist pastor. That is my background in training. So I have a 96 hour master divinity degree with a specialization in care and counseling. So, um, I was at my student charge. So I was about 25 years old, and, um, there was a gentleman in my congregation. His name was Fred. I've never told this story publicly before. I've always kept it private because I felt like that was such a monumental moment for me personally, and a sacred moment for Fred that it didn't ever feel right to talk about. But I just felt really led this morning to share this. So I'm going to. So Fred was, um, in the hospital and he was dying. And, um, I went to go see him and at the time that I entered the room, his niece was there and his niece and I talked a little bit. And there was a moment, uh, Fred, Fred, when I entered the room, was unconscious. I, you know, I let him know I was there, spoke to him, uh, because hearing is, uh, one of the things that lasts the longest, as you may know. Yeah. Um, and so, um, and then as we were sitting there, um, Fred suddenly regained consciousness and he leaned up in his bed and he sat up and he's like, I'm dying. Please help me die. Mm. And I said, oh, Fred, I hear how much you're you're ready to let go. And, um, you can just relax and allow it. You just all you have to do to do that is stop fighting it. And, um, then he lost consciousness again, and I sat down again next to his niece, who was very, um, distressed, uh, from from his outburst and, um. Um, I said to her, you know, it's the hardest thing because our entire life we're reaching for that next breath. And in this and in this time, what we have to do is release the breath. And it's it's a very different mentality, um, when we just simply have to allow that to happen. And, uh, at that point, she she'd had enough. She's she exited the room and I just sat with Red and I softly sang. And, uh, less than 45 minutes later, Fred was gone. Um, um, he stopped breathing, and I went and got the nurse, and, um, she confirmed that. Yeah, he he had passed. Um, I, uh, I understood in that moment the importance of listening because Fred was crying out in his in in his anguish. Right. It was an anguished moment for him. And I think that it was through my really listening and hearing that, that we connected on a profound level. And I was able to help him, um, take that journey and make it a little easier. I believe it was easier for him as a result of my being there, I really do. So whether it was or not, maybe I don't know, but, um, that's that's my feeling. It was a it was a sacred moment for me for sure. And one I'll never forget. Thank you so much for sharing that story, especially being a story you hadn't shared before. I think it highlights a couple of things one. Definitely listening. Hearing, but also because of your your training, because of the work that you did. Being able to, I guess, give permission in that moment, confirm his desire to pass and then just hold space to allow him to do it. Because I, I do believe that in those moments that, like you said, you know, um, here hearing is is something they have and you hear I have heard at least so many stories of people that when they were in a coma, they remember people talking to them, even though they couldn't speak back, they couldn't respond. They knew that there were people around them. And so I think he knew that you were there and holding that space for that. And I think that's that's really profound. I think the other thing for me it brought up is, is some stories I've heard through the years of people I know when they had a loved one passing and it was their time, but they weren't letting go. And it came down to that moment when their loved one, their family member, their spouse, or maybe the family as a collective stood together and said, it's okay to go. It's okay to go. Um, because I think, like you said, our whole life. Right? We're reaching for that next breath. And it's it's not something we can't. I don't constantly sit here and think. Breathe, Natalie. Breathe. Maybe in moments of distress or something. Like my girl. Take a deep breath. You need to calm down. But it's something our bodies do. And so when that time comes that we're going to the next place, that we're leaving this world. I would imagine that you consciously realize, you know, I'm I'm still breathing and I just want to go and I don't know how to stop, right. To let, to allow that to happen. And, and I've just heard so many stories of people saying as soon as we told them it was okay to go, that we were going to be okay, they left. And and it really sounds like like that's what you did for Fred. Our bodies know what to do. Our bodies, our our bodies have chemicals just like they do when we're birthed. Um, the, um, there's a lot of chemicals. Most people know about those women, women's chemicals and and how it helps in birth. Um, the same is true when we die. There are chemicals that our brain releases when we're in that process. And so we can trust that our body really does know what to do. But we have to then allow that to, to do its thing. We're going really deep. I hope your listeners are okay. Yeah. No, I love this. I love good, good. Well, I hope your listeners do too. That's good. Yeah, No, I appreciate that story. And you know, for me, this episode is about your journey and caregiving and the work that you do. But the connection for me with you initially was that caregiving piece. But then understanding the work that you do and the space that you hold for people and the way that you allow people to navigate by listening and allowing them to talk was so beautiful for me to understand, because I think whether you're on a caretaking journey, which is something I talk about a lot on the pad on the podcast, because that's my life. And also I talk a lot about it in finance because there's so many things financially to set up. It does not make the caregiver the caregiving journey easy, but it can take some of the stress off when finances aren't a concern. And so that that was really our initial connection. But I also think the work you do does the same. And so I help people relieve that financial stress, that financial pressure, and allow them to breathe again in a sense so they can take the steps they need to take. And when we get our finances in order, it impacts and changes and allows for so much in our lives. And for me, that's the connection between what I do and what you do. And so just to kind of make that connection for people, but I think that was a beautiful way to open this episode. Um, the next thing I want to talk about is go a little bit into your background as a caregiver, because that's where we connected. And you were able to share some things with me in our first conversation that, gosh, every time I have a conversation with somebody that has been or is a caretaker, honestly, it helps me to breathe a little bit better, um, that it's okay that I'm not going to get it all right, that there's people out there that can hold me up when I'm when I'm struggling or whatever. And so, You having a background in that? You know, we often carry those invisible loads. And that's part of what we talked about that I said to you, I want to reach out and find out more about the work you do, because I am not one to easily open up and vulnerably tell people, here's the heavy part. I will touch on it, but I won't go deep in the sense of where I might need to actually release things. It's just kind of how I'm wired and how I've ever been so or always been. So we carry those invisible loads. Can you talk about a time when you were holding it together? You were holding it together for somebody else and no, nobody saw it. So for your listeners, um, my husband, uh, at the time, uh, had we discovered when I got pregnant with our daughter, had a genetic condition, and his two siblings had died in childhood. And at the time, we didn't know that anything was going to go wrong. He was healthy. He was. Well, we just, um, learned this information. But, um, in 2011, all of that changed, and he became very ill. Um, it started with the stupidest, simplest thing. He went on a business trip, um, and he twisted his ankle. And all of that created, um, a huge mess where he literally almost died. Um, because of this genetic condition that had such an impact. It's a metabolic condition. And so, um. Yeah. Uh, so I had eight years of full time caregiving. That incredibly intense. Um, there was a point at which I believe I told you when we talked before that we were released directly from the intensive care unit, um, Thanksgiving Day of 2016. Most people don't have that experience. Most people go to a regular floor. For a while. But his care was so complex. That was what we did because the hospital didn't want the liability and his care was that difficult. And so, Um, I, I know a lot about the stress and strain that that occurs for caregivers, for sure. It's exhausting. And I think for me, um, family, friends and coworkers, they those people around me, they wanted to help and they wanted to listen. But the fact is, only 2% of people in our nation have ever been trained to actively listen 2%. That's a startling statistic. And so even though people want to help, they also don't know how. They don't know how to, uh, how do I listen? We're told to listen when? From the time we're in kindergarten. But unless you've actually gone through some training, as I did in my master's program and other therapists and that type of thing, most people don't have that training. And so learning how to truly hold space, people could see I was distressed. People wanted to help. People would reach out, um, and then as they would listen and I would start to talk. Um, one of two things tended to happen to the major listening mistakes that I talk about that happens. One is people would try to fix, they would try to offer me solutions. Well, have you tried this? Have you done that? Have you? And if. You. Were listening, I imagine. Right now you're laughing along with me because. Because yeah, that happens a lot with family and friends. And then the second one is, um, if if people manage to not do that one, what the other pitfall people tend to fall into is, um, they begin to absorb your feelings and they get drowned with the emotion that you're emoting, and they don't know how to hold that separation, that boundary, and let you have your feelings and, um, be able to hold on to themselves so that you can have yours and. Yeah. Yeah. And so I think that's really that's really an important point. Both of those things are important points that there are so many good people out there that want to, that want to help, that want to hold space for you. But the first thing you said was, we're told to listen from the time we're little, but Listening and hearing are two different things. You listen for an instruction, right? I think it really takes another level when we start in school. I mean, your parents tell you, listen to what I'm saying. You need to go make your bed or you need to brush your teeth or whatever. But when you get in school, it's a whole different level of listening for instruction for the next task. But really hearing and receiving what's being said to you. When you're talking to somebody about something they're experiencing or going through is completely different. However, I think we react. That's where I think that fixer comes in. Let me give you the solution, or let me ask you a question that popped into my head that might help you get to the solution, when in reality, when we're carrying something very heavy, all we want is to be heard. We're not looking for the answer. At least this is my experience. I'm not. I'm not looking for the answer. And I've had these conversations with my boyfriend. I don't need you to fix everything. I just need you to give me space to fall apart for a minute. Whether it's tears or words or me sitting quietly in him wondering what's going on. Right? And so that's the part that I think maybe we get pieces of as we get older and we experience things through life, or people around us experience things, but not in its entirety, because I know so many times someone's lost a loved one and you want to reach out, but you don't know the right thing to say. Or what can I do for you? Or is it okay to just show up? And so sometimes it paralyzes people from doing anything at all. Um, and it's just that idea of maybe it doesn't need a solution. Maybe it's just a, hey, I'm thinking about you, a quick check in. Maybe it's not even the conversation. They might not be at the point where where they even know how to talk about what they're feeling, right? But it's just knowing that somebody there, somebody sees them, you know that. Quick reach out. So tell me a little bit more about how from from being that caretaker. Oh, well, I don't want to skip past the part of people kind of absorbing what you're feeling and it becoming overwhelming. Would you say that's part of why? And I'll use my experience. I went through a very. Let's call it Flipping the Pancake of my life a few years back, and I am so forever grateful. If any of the people who showed up for me in my life during that six months are listening to this. Thank you, thank you, thank you. I had so many people that listened to me on repeat, on repeat, on repeat for all the things I didn't have answers to. I didn't, you know, initially we want to find the answer, then we want to just figure out our way through it. And I had some amazing people that held space for me that were patient with me. But would you say a lot of the times when people get overwhelmed by what you're sharing with them, it might be the point that they shut off and then because they don't know how to handle that, and therefore they maybe stop showing up for the person that they're trying to support, and that can create maybe even more alienation or loneliness for the person who's struggling and looking for that support. Yeah, it happens for sure. Um, people, if if they're not sure and they feel like they're doing it wrong, they very well may disconnect. And that's so sad because in reality it's not what they want, but they also don't know how to find the way back to, um, back to that. And so rather than be in their discomfort and, and ask the questions and Wade through it together. They may disconnect. I had people who, um, that happened with for sure in my life. Uh, eight years is a long time to go through a long, long. I mean, that's how my kids were young, you know? Um, it was it was rough. You were you. You were carrying the weight of your entire world. I was. Yeah. Um, so I, I shared with you, I think when we talked to that, I recently had an experience. I took my parents to see my brother and sister in law for a week, and I, I really my brother had taken the week off, so I really kind of gave mom and dad to him. I was there, participated in the family's things. I did a little bit of work, but I really kind of gave my parents to them in a sense or to him. And at the end of the week, it was Friday night. We were coming home on Saturday, my brother and sister in law and I stayed up late and just kind of talked. Now my brother is my safe space to call. I have called him in tears and my brother is not he. He's a fixer or a smart ass. He'll try to say the smart ass comment to be funny. Right. That's how he deals with those kind of situations. And I've learned that over the years. But in this situation, he has been amazing at letting me call and cry or call and give him updates about mom and dad, or call when I'm frustrated about a situation, or mom and dad. He's been amazing at that. But he said to me that Friday night we stayed up late chatting, and he looked across the living room at me and he's like, is this what it's like every single day? And I said, yeah. Now my parents have been with me for two and a half years, but immediately after that he said, thank you for everything you're doing. It is absolutely clear to me now that I am not wired like you are. I could not do what you're doing. And in that moment, it was both that overwhelming feeling of, okay, he sees it and he recognizes it. That meant the world to me, but also that he recognized how different our roles are and that we're made for the two roles that we have. But I felt like it opened up space in a different way going forward for him to understand when I make those calls where I'm really at. He's done a great job of showing up for me from 1200 miles away over the phone. But I think it opened a little bit of a different window for him, seeing it for six days in a row right in front of him. Um, and I guess I share that story to just say there has to be grace given on both sides of that equation when you're trying to show up for somebody. Maybe the simplest way. And you can tell me what your thoughts are. Deb is just to ask what they need or just send. And I'm checking in. Because if you say, let me know when you need something, they're probably not going to because they don't want to put a burden on someone. Right? Yeah. They're never gonna let me just ask the question, where are you at today? Yeah. Um, or just show up and knock on the door and drop something off or just said, hey, I just want to put eyes on you and just see that you're okay. I think what I wanted most was for somebody to say, I'd like to bring a casserole on Tuesday at 4:00. Would that work for you or. Um, I I'm headed out to the store. Is there something I can get and drop by for you, or it would have been helpful if somebody would have said, hey, I'm taking my kids to go do this activity. Would would it be okay if your kids, you know, came along? Would you mind? I'd I'd love to take your kids, too. Those were the kinds of things that I really need. I understand your situation is very different as a as a daughter than than mine, as a spouse. And I'm just really quick here. If anyone listening is a spousal caregiver I want to tell them about. And I told you for your dad. I told told you about this on our initial call, there's an organization called well, Spouse Org. It was my lifesaver in terms of my emotional safety during that time because it's a lot, um, when it's the person that is your partner and they're not able to, um, be your partner in that same way anymore. It's devastating. And having a place to talk about that in a very real way is, is really important. So if if that's your situation, I highly recommend you. Look, it's only for spousal caregivers. There are other organizations for others, uh, situations. But if you're a spousal caregiver, definitely look that up. Okay. Uh. No, I appreciate I appreciate. You sharing that. That's awesome. So, um, I think that, uh, you know, just sending a text. Um, also, like, I'm, I'm thinking about you that that matters. I mean, I did have some friends that were that were able to do that. Sometimes that was good. Sometimes I didn't want to talk to people. Sometimes I was so overwhelmed I needed to turtle. I call it turtling, like shutting down in my shell. I just needed to turtle and, um, and sometimes I really couldn't. And so, um, that's why, um, there's a, uh, an article called The Ring Theory, uh, by Daniel Goldman, who is the author of Emotional Intelligence, um, a book that came out in the 90s, super powerful book. Um, but this ring theory is, uh, it's a it's a really powerful example of how to really address caregivers. So in the center of the ring is the person or people who's affected, and then the people outside of that, uh, the next closest to them. So, um, ill person spouse, uh uh, daughters, uh, you know, and then moving out sometimes siblings sometimes, you know, friends started out. You always want to make sure that wherever you are in this ring, in the circle, that you're not dumping your feelings into the middle of the ring, you need to make sure you're dumping outside. So if you've got feelings going on rather than absorbing, you want to make sure you're taking them outside the circle. So I hope that helps your listeners. It's a really, I think, key, uh, to understanding how, you know, is it okay to say this now? Well, are you dumping into the circle or are you dumping out of the circle? Because if you're dumping out, go for it. If you're dumping in, don't. Yeah. No, I appreciate you sharing that as well. And you do make a good point. Our situations are different. And we did talk about what it's like that I'm trying to understand what my dad might be going through watching his wife of, gosh, 57 years now. I think it is, um, kind of disappear. And for my dad, it will come out in frustrations or, um, outbursts, not tears. But you know, those frustrated outbursts in some of the things she can't do anymore. Um, and so I'm really grateful that you shared that resource for me to connect him to. And the other thing you said that was so important to me is. Your dad needs to have a resource, and you need to have a resource separate from one another. And then if you have a family caregiving support group that you attend together, that's great. But that this journey is very different for me and him. And we need support for our specific roles in the journey. And I had never had anybody say it to me quite like that. My thought was always like, gosh, what can I do with my dad to get some support? That would probably be good for me too. But our conversation made me realize I need something focused on me, and I need to find something focused on him. And then there's great resources that we can come together and attend something weekly or monthly as well, uh, to support one another, but that we need our own outlets. So I appreciate that. I want to. Have you heard me. That's so. Good. I did, I did. I'm so. Grateful. For you saying that because, uh. And again, I think it was where our conversation went. Your experience from having walked that path could see those two different needs that he and I have. And so I'm incredibly grateful for that. I want to kind of shift because I want to make sure we talk about the work you do now. So how did that caregiving journey kind of transition to you in the way that you show up for others to today and, and the service that you give through the work you do? So I think, uh, I think the caregiving piece was definitely the genesis. Right? Because I understood the importance of listening and I knew how powerful that could be. So after that happened, um, I helped my husband get better. I helped him find a medication. For those who don't know the story, he got better. Um, and then the marriage fell apart. We went to marriage counseling for two years, and ultimately, I realized the only person I could change was me. And this. This wasn't going to work out. So I put him in the river of love and sent him down. Because I don't want any bitterness in my life, only love. And so that happened. And then I went to work at a funeral home, and I loved that job. I would have stayed there forever. It was a really good fit for me. Um, and the funeral home came back to all of us one day in the cremation societies and said, we're changing the compensation package. And so I began to think, okay, if I can do anything in my life right now, what is it that I really want to do? And I was folding my laundry and as I grabbed another towel, what came to me is, what if it's all about listening? What if that's what it is? And then my brain just kind of exploded and I went, oh, what if that's what it is? It's not about coaching. It's not about anything else. It's just about listening. It's not about therapy. It's not about helping somebody get from one point to another. What if it's just about holding space for people who have been in a tough spot, and their family and friends really didn't know how to help? And what if I could do that for people? What if I did that for people? Yes, that's what I want to do. I want to do that for people. And so, um, I started to build very next day, um, I started to think about and dream about and work on what that was going to look like. And so July 20th of 21, I opened hold Hearing out life drama, which was initially intended the the initial goal of the entire service was that, uh, um, people could come and talk about whatever it was that was on their heart or mind, what didn't matter what it was. Um, I just hold space. Not therapy, not coaching, just a very different kind of a new lane in mental health where people could just be heard. And, um, if anybody would book more than six times in a rolling calendar year. Then my background in training and my ethics say you're probably at a point where we need to look at, um, getting you some, um, some care, ongoing care and roll into therapy, because what you need is more than what I can do at that point. And so, um, I've worked at building lists and making connections with therapists that I could refer to. And so I have a very strong list of, of women and men around the country to, uh, to hand people off to. I love that, and I think that's a really important point. Your work is completely separate and different than counseling or therapy. So can you maybe share a little bit about, I don't know if it's so much that difference or what people don't understand about listening that makes it a separate modality. Maybe is the word um or a separate tool people can use that can lead them to the next level, because it kind of sounds like that's that's what you just shared is you give people room for that. And as they kind of get some things out of their way now, you see, they're ready to take some additional steps that do require some other components. So can you share a little bit more about that journey or that understanding for the listeners? Yeah. People who come and book appointments can expect no advice, no fixing. That's a paramount, right? They're actually going to get active listening. They can book in 15, 30 or 45 minutes very different from a therapy time. Um, a therapist is really trying to help you get from, okay, I'm here and I want to be over here. And I know that there's this disconnect in my life, and I don't understand what I need to to do to get myself there. That's really, um, a therapist is trying to help me move through something, move forward so that you can feel better. That's ultimately the goal. And a hold appointment does that, too. It just does it much shorter, much faster. And there's just huge relief because as soon as you come in and you go, okay, I got this thing, let me dump it, let me get it off my chest. Suddenly it's like, oh, it's like it's relief. It's it's suddenly there's clarity. There's room to now have that mental space to be able to think about what comes next. And I don't have to give it to you. You just know after. After you. Word vomit to me or to one of my team members, I'm building a team. Um, this is how I hope to scale the business and training others to listen as well. Compassionate and kind, making sure that, um, people understand exactly why this is important in the world. So yeah. Okay, so that takes me back to where we were talking a little bit about in the beginning of, uh, people fall into two roles. They either try to absorb it and it becomes overwhelming, or they try to fix it. And as I heard you talking about therapy and no knock on therapy, y'all, I have been in and out of therapy multiple times in my life. It has saved me. It has guided me in directions I needed to go. Most recently, you know that big upheaval in my life about six and a half years ago, which led me to everything I do now, what I do for a business, allowing me to caretaker for my parents, the podcast, and why I want to share so much information. All of it stemmed from that. So, I mean, I am eternally grateful for the guidance and support I've helped and help I've gotten from counselors and therapists throughout the years, and I think that it is very important work. I agree. Talking to you or listening to what you just said, their job is to give you steps in a path to. I mean, maybe you can't fix the whole situation, but to guide you through and to get you moving forward, getting you to where you want to be, getting past the trauma, getting past the heartbreak, getting past the the loss of a loved one or the loss of a career, whatever it might be that you're going and talk to you about. So they're almost like that solution person. They're trying to give you the solutions. But can you talk a little bit more about what shifts? I know you mentioned it there at the end, but I want you will you go a little bit deeper about what shifts in a person when they're just listened to, besides just that relief? Is there a little bit more to that you can share? It's the validation. You talked about it exactly perfectly. When you felt heard by your brother. You did it right there. Your brother validated you. Your brother helped you to know I see you. I understand now, I understand right, and sometimes sometimes, even if you're talking with somebody and you really can't understand, sometimes just having somebody say, I really don't understand, this is this is true empathy. Even though I'll never be in your shoes, I can still see how much this hurts you and I. I care so very much. I'm never going to get it holy because this is your journey. This is your path. And and I see you and you matter to me. That is so incredibly powerful. Yeah. Now, I remember too, when we were talking and you kind of explained to me what a session, uh, or what somebody can expect in a session through hold. And you said we may if somebody's struggling to get the words out, we may give them some kind of guiding questions to help them to open up and release. But it's never suggestions. Like you said, it's not therapy. It's not guidance to the next step. It's you want people to open up and release whatever they need to release. And the reason that registered so much for me is because I'm not somebody. As I said earlier in in the episode today, I'm not somebody who does that easily for a million reasons and things I've been through in my life. And sometimes I think I'm just kind of wired that way, but. I thought, oh my gosh. When that situation happened six years ago, the one thing I did before I started counseling or therapy is I had a smash session in my garage, and I don't know if I've ever shared this on a podcast. I have talked about it before. I don't know if it's been on a podcast. I took everything I had that it was a personal relationship that had ended. It was I was heartbroken. I took everything that person had ever given me from my house into my garage. And I text my son, who was at school. He was a senior in high school and I'm like, hey, if you come home and there's a bunch of noise, don't don't park the car in the garage, just park in the driveway. If you hear a bunch of noise in the garage, don't worry, I'm okay. And he's like, okay. And so I'm out there with Smashing everything on the ground, but if it didn't break in small enough pieces, I got the hammer and I smashed it more. And, you know, I'd heard about people going to these smash rooms to let out stress, whatever, whatever. And I did this in my own garage, and it was at the suggestion of a friend. And. When I stopped suddenly, the door from the house to the garage slightly opens. My son had come home and he was just sitting on the stairs right there. So when the noise stopped, he opened the door a little bit, barely peeked through and he's like, you good? I said, yes, are you finished? I said yes. He's like, I'll go get the brooms and dustpan. I didn't think that would make me emotional all right. But he came into the garage and helped me sweep up the mess. He didn't ask why. He didn't ask what drove me to that? Nope. He let me finish. And then he just came and swept up the mess and he gave me a hug. And we never talked about it again. Ever. Yeah. Um, I don't know how. At barely 18 years old. Well, I don't even think he had turned 18 yet. 17 years old. He just had the hair, the wherewithal to let that be it. But when you explained to me the work that you guys do at hold, that's what it was for me. It's the chance to. And that's why I said, okay, I think this is something that I need to check into, because what I wish I would have known about what you had, because from that experience of releasing physically to have been able to step into a space where I could have released verbally, because I can tell you so many times for me in counseling and not just that time I went previous times, we want to release all that, but our therapist or counselor has a process they're taking us through at the same time. And again, nothing against them. That is how their process works. But to have somewhere where I could have released everything I had to say. Sadness, anger. Frustration, disappointment, unknowing, whatever it was. And then stepped into counseling. I think counseling counseling was very effective for me, but I think it could have been effective faster, if that makes sense. If I could have had a place to release the emotion and then got to work, rather than trying to do both the same at the same time with somebody who's just trying to get me to do the work because that's their job. Um, so I love that you kind of went there, but will, will you touch a little bit on kind of what those sessions are like, or maybe how you'll guide somebody through that the first time? Because I can imagine it might be really hard for people that first time to kind of drop the wall or the curtain. Most people, when they when they book, they're choosing 15, 30 or 45 minutes. I think I mentioned that that really helps to focus the conversation because they know this is how much time we have. So they come in focused and ready to talk about this is the thing I really need to say. And so when I set it up, or one of my employees that sets up the call, you know, it's it's a greeting into the room reminding people that this is confidential, reminding them how much time they have, reminding them that before the end of the call will make sure that you're emotionally safe so you feel ready to to release and move on, because it's really important to have that safe container. Therapist should be able to do that for you too. If they're not, get a different therapist. Um, and then also, um, making sure to remind them not giving any advice unless you specifically ask. And um, also then the just the time is theirs to talk about whatever it is they need to talk about and then off they go. Um, so, you know, all of that's, you know, maybe 30s or whatever. And then and then it's really just about listening, um, and holding space for whatever that is. Uh, sometimes I've had people start the call who are in tears, and they can't even get any words out at the beginning. And that's okay. That's okay. We hold space with that. And, um, I have it's it's safe to cry here. It's safe. You're you're in a safe space. Just let it be. I'm here. I'm listening. Um. I'm here with you in in what you're going through right now. It's okay. Everything's okay. And eventually people will be able to. With that soothing. Right with that, uh, acceptance. Get to the point where they can then verbalize. Some people have come in angry. Yeah. Should they need to say. That's all right. Say, say what it is you need to say. Say it's all right. Everything. There is no emotion that, um, I'm uncomfortable with. I've. I've been through my own work, too. Um, yeah, I've been through. And so that's really important to be able to hold space with somebody. Anybody that comes to work for me has been through their own work, too. They need to be able to to do this and do it well because we care about people. We're compassionate and we want to make sure you everybody comes away from a call knowing are you matter. So how do they how do you really feel? Well, it really depends where you started from, right? Because if you started from a place of that. When I'm so angry. Yeah. Then you know, the place you're going to get to with that might be, uh. Well, uh, I release that. And, you know, I'm still frustrated, but I'm not enraged. I'm not. It's not the same. It's it's better. It's like, I don't know if any of your listeners might know Abraham Hicks, but Abraham Hicks talks about the emotional scale and moving up the emotional scale. And so there's a there's kind of a grid of framework for, for what that is. And so my goal on any call is to make sure that, um, the client that we're helping gets to move up at least a, a couple of rungs on that scale, on that emotional scale. So because you feel better, I mean, if you're starting from from, right, if you're starting from depression, rage feels better. Of course. Of course it does. Right? If you're starting from, you know, real frustration or unhappiness, Sometimes you can get to a little bit of hopefulness, but it just depends on I, you know, I can't promise, well, you're going to feel this at the end. There's not that, but you'll feel relief for sure. It'll feel better than it did for sure. 100%. Yeah. It's a very personal experience, I imagine, because we're all wired differently, which means we deal with anger, frustration, hurt, pain, whatever differently than the person right next to us. So I love that. And you know, the the idea that there's no judgment here. And this is another place that I think there was so much connection to the work you do and the work I do in our conversation. There's no judgment. And that's what I tell people when they sit down on their finances, because a lot of times, and I just had a couple of these conversations in the last 48 hours. I'm embarrassed. I'm overwhelmed. I don't know where to start. And the first thing I say is, my job is not to judge where you are today. It's to Understand where you are today, as well as where you want to go in the future and help you build that bridge between the two. One step at a time. So I'm not here to judge you. And I also say, look, let me tell you what my numbers looked like when I started. I freely tell people I was a hot mess financially. When I sat down for this first appointment for myself. But it's also what I feel like qualifies me to do the work I do. Because I know those feelings. I know the journey. I'm still walking it. And so how could I not help somebody to move in that direction also? But that's what I hear from you. You create a place that's safe for people, that there's no judgment. And then when you talk that about that emotional scale, you're taking them one step at a time in the direction that they that they want to go in to help them get to a healthier place. And if need be, then you're making a recommendation of, hey, I think there's some more work that you could do. Let me give you a couple connections that can walk you on that part of the journey as well. And so I think what you do is vitally important. I think it is incredibly needed because we live in a world more than ever that is so focused on judgment. No matter what you post on social media or what you share, or maybe within a group of people, there's so much judgment out there. And I think it has created even more than ever the desire for people to keep their stuff to themselves when what we need, especially when going through difficult times, whether it's caretaking or whatever our struggle might be at this point in our life. People just need a place they can truly feel safe to let go. But I don't think those are readily available. And I think also the work you do is a beautiful bridge to people who maybe are resistant to get that additional help through counseling and therapy to find their way there. I grew up in a small town in Iowa. It's called Oskaloosa. It's very small town. It's about 11,000, 10,000. When I was when I was there and there was a stigma and there's still very much is in the Midwest for sure. I think it's changing. I think it's gotten better. Um, I'm 53 as we record this episode. And so, um, but it was very prevalent. Um, my family didn't believe in therapy. It was like it was a whole there was all of this negativity around it. And, um, I just really began to open up my mind. What if what if it can help? What if it's different? What if being heard Mhm. Makes a change. And you know a really good therapist is going to guide you by asking the right questions for you so that you can get to where you need to go. So yeah I love that. I want to share one more quick thing. And then I want to have you tell people where they can find you. Okay. Uh, so one of the things I volunteer at a gym for disabled individuals, majority of which are veterans, at the end of every class session, they give away the Kintsugi award. Do you know what that is, Deb? I don't. So kintsugi is I believe it's a Japanese art where they take broken pottery and they mend it back together with gold. Oh, with the gold? Yes, yes, I'm familiar with the contest. I didn't know that was what it was called. Yeah. I think that the stigma and I do agree, I think it's it is changing. But at times we can find ourselves feeling so broken that we don't know how it can ever be put together. We don't know who could ever understand our situation or appreciate it. Or maybe, depending on what the situation is or the reason we're feeling broken, we think we can't ever come back from that. And. The truth is, you will never completely heal. Every experience leaves marks on your heart, on your soul, on your body, depending on what the experience is. But the idea of kintsugi to mend back together those pieces with gold and make that piece of pottery even more valuable than it was when it was whole and complete, is so beautiful to me. And that's the message I want people to think about from this episode, that every single one of you out there will feel broken or. Not valuable. Not worth while at some point in your life because of something that happens to you, because of choices you might make along the way. The truth is, doing the work not to fix yourself, but to heal, which I think are two different things and move forward. Having learned the lessons of the journey makes you more valuable and more beautiful than you ever were to begin with. And that that to me is so special. And that's what I heard in that last piece of what you were talking about. It just popped into my head that you're a part of doing the work where we heal. From an inner perspective, we don't fix, but we heal and we have more to offer because of going on that journey. We're more valuable than we were to begin with. So I am incredibly grateful to know you. I still need to reach out and set up time for myself. But how can people find you? How can they reach out to you? How can they get access to the service that services that hold offers? So all of our appointments are booked online. It's very easy. You just, um, hearing out life drama and you look at the top, there's a tab that says book on book online. Um, you can again choose, uh, 15, 30 or 45 if you want. Zoom. You can have the face to face if you prefer. Phone. You choose that. You just do simply have to agree to our user agreement before we take the call. Yeah. You'll get a confirmation email. Um, the the price is $25 per 15 minutes. Uh, I really want to keep it affordable. It's less than therapy. When I first started, my my slogan was, um, less than therapy. Different from friends or family. I love that. Uh, but but people started to say tab less than therapy. That that makes it sound like you feel like you're less than. And I'm like, well, no, I'm not less than. That's not what I mean. It's just I'm a lot more affordable than I'm like, well, I'm not putting affordable on there. So that's not going to work out. So yeah. It's been an interesting journey trying to find the right words, because what I am doing is very different from what most people have heard of. So anyway, hearing at Life Drama. Com is the website if you're interested in my social media for this conversation has been all about the BBC service. I also have a B2B service. Um, you can find both when you land on the home page here at Life Drama. Com, you're going to be asked, do you want the personal stuff or do you want the business stuff? Invite people to take that journey, choose their path. And um, there's a lot of resources there that, um, some of them free. They have a blog, uh, um, that comes out, um, weekly. Um, lots of good free stuff there. If you're interested in active listening, emotional intelligence, you can look that find that to on the hearing out life drama.com. And if you want to talk to me personally, just shoot me an email info at hearing at Live drama.com. I love it for everybody listening to this. If you have not picked up on it yet, Deb has one of the most calming voices of anybody I've talked to in a very long time. When she hopped on the zoom today, she's like, hello? And I instantly was like, huh? I don't even know if I need you to listen to me, Deb, maybe I just need you to talk to me. But your voice is very calming, and to me, that just makes sense for the work that you do. I'm grateful for your time today. I'm grateful for the message you shared. I look forward to continuing to build a relationship with you, a friendship with you from the connection that we've made. And I think definitely there may be opportunities in the future to do some additional episodes and maybe talk about some different things that can impact people. So just thank you very much for your time and being here and for you that are listening. Please all honesty, I am not an easy one to open up, and it was so easy for me to talk to Deb, and the very first time we were looking each other in the face over zoom. Um, excuse me, but I guarantee you that just from the feeling I get from Deb and the piece, I'm going to call it, from having a conversation with her, that if you're in a place where you feel like you have something to say, or to release, or to scream about or cry about, reach out to hold. Go to their website, set up a time and just see. See how you can start the process that you need to go on yourself. I'll definitely put the links in the show notes so you can look for them there as well. To reach out to Deb. I want to thank everybody for joining Deb and I on the Nickels and Dimes podcast today. I'm your host, Natalie Kime. I look forward to continuing to bring you amazing content each week that will educate you, support you, and hopefully find financial freedom. Have a great week! I appreciate you listening and we'll see you again next week.