Attached to the Outcome_ How Your Attachment Style Impacts Your Love, Money, and Life with Bev Mitelman

In this episode of Chat with Nat: Conversations That Count, host Natalie Kime welcomes Bev Mitelman, an expert in attachment theory specializing in romantic relationships, sexuality, respectful parenting, and workplace dynamics. Bev explains the origins and impact of attachment styles on relationships, parenting, and financial behaviors. Together, they discuss how early childhood experiences shape adult patterns, the possibility of changing attachment styles, and the importance of emotional attunement and radical honesty. The episode highlights practical strategies for self-awareness, emotional regulation, and building secure connections in all areas of life. Listeners are invited to explore their own attachment styles with Bev’s free online quiz.

What you will hear:

• Overview of attachment theory and its significance in relationships.
• Explanation of different attachment styles: secure, anxious-preoccupied, avoidant, and their origins in childhood experiences.
• The impact of attachment styles on romantic relationships, parenting, and workplace dynamics.
• Discussion on the possibility of changing attachment styles over time through awareness and effort.
• The role of emotional attunement and radical honesty in fostering authentic connections.
• Exploration of how attachment styles influence financial behaviors and decision-making.
• The connection between emotional regulation and attachment styles, including coping mechanisms for overwhelming emotions.
• Insights on the importance of self-awareness and understanding personal needs in relationships.
• The effects of midlife changes on women's attachment styles and relationship dynamics.
• Strategies for building healthier relationships through clear communication of values and needs.
  
  

Connect with Bev Mitelman:
 Website: https://securelyloved.com/
Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=61551898715971
YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/@SecurelyLoved

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Transcript

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All right. Welcome to chat with Nat. Conversations that count. The podcast where real conversations meet real life. I'm your host Natalie Kime an entrepreneur, financial professional, caregiver and advocate for living fully. This show dives into the stories and strategies that shape who we are and how we thrive. Have you ever wondered why you keep attracting the same kind of partner, or why certain people trigger you more than others? The answer might be hiding in something you learned long before you could even talk. Today we're diving into the world of attachment theory how it shapes your relationships, your parenting, even the way you handle money. My guest, Bev Mitelman, believes that radical honesty and understanding your attachment style can help you create more authentic connections, not just with others, but with yourself. Of course, before we jump into the intro in this episode, I have your money tip of the week, which is how you attach is how you spend. So here's that money tip. The way you feel about money often mirrors the way you attach in relationships. If you tend to cling to every dollar, you might be operating from fear or scarcity. If you spend impulsively, you might be chasing comfort or validation. Awareness is the first step. Notice your emotional emotional triggers before your financial ones. Y'all, I am so excited about our guest today and having her expertise to talk on this topic on these topics as we dig into the conversation, but let me introduce you to Bev. She is an expert in attachment theory, focusing on romantic relationships, sexuality, respectful parenting, and attachment styles in the workplace. At 48. She's a mother of two sons who are away at college, and she's navigating her own season of change as an empty nester after having been married for 23 years and separating in 2020. Bev believes radical honesty is the key to real connection in a world that's growing increasingly disconnected. Bev, welcome to the show. Thank you so much for being here. Thank you. What a beautiful introduction. I'm so happy to be here with you and your audience. Thank you, thank you. Well, I'm excited to get into this topic because just as I was preparing for this episode, I was reading some of the information you sent. I hopped on your your, um, pod match profile, and I was looking through some things and putting the notes together, and I was like, oh, I can recognize so many things from my life and the attachment to money, which is where that money tip just made perfect sense for today. So let's jump in first and talk about understanding attachment styles. So what are they and how do they impact our romantic relationships? So excellent place to start. So when we're talking about attachment styles, we're really talking about our emotional connection or the way in which we form an emotional bond with someone else. And this is deeply rooted in what we learned, saw, felt, um, and, and experienced as a young child. So when we come into this world, we are wired for connection. Mhm. Right. Yeah. And and as young infants, as humans, that connection is critical for our survival. And infant will not survive without a connection to a caregiver. Right. So yeah it's critical. And so we're wired for this connection. But the way in which we experience that connection sets up a set of patterns in our mind for how it is we're going to interact with the world, how we're going to view ourselves, how we're going to establish emotional bonds with other people. So when we're talking about attachment styles, we're talking about learned behavior. And there are four distinct ways, four distinct categories that we as humans will form an emotional bond with other people. So those styles, that's what we're talking about those four different ways. Okay interesting but makes perfect sense so far. Makes perfect sense. So okay. So as we go through childhood how does that form or develop our attachment style. Yeah great. Question. So on a baseline we start by talking about a child who develops into an adult who has a secure attachment. This is sort of what we're aiming for. The utopia the best case scenario. This is a child who experienced a fair degree of emotional attunement from their caregiver, right? So they got consistent, predictable. Love those keywords. Consistent. It was predictable. Um, there was emotional attunement, and they felt safe. Emotionally safe. So that doesn't mean that, you know, they got everything they wanted as a child or the parent was perfect because there's no such thing. But the child could relax into the relationship, knowing that if they had an emotion, they were angry, they were sad. They were joyful. They were. They felt shame about something that they could. Their caregiver would teach them what that was. They would honor that. They would learn what it was, and they could express it to their caregiver and expect that the caregiver would respond in a healthy way. So that sets up that individual to move into adulthood, where they've got a level of emotional intelligence and attunement towards their self. They learn communication. They learn emotional regulation. They learn about the importance of boundaries and all of this good stuff that's needed to have healthy relationships as adults. For your romantic partners, with family, with friends, with coworkers, with everyone around. So okay, so that makes me think. Is there an age range where this development happens for the most part and can like? I'll use myself as an example. I became a single mom at five and a half to my son, and I was in dating relationships after that, never lived with anybody, or got remarried. And the first relationship I had after my marriage ended was not it. It was not an abusive relationship. It was kind of an emotionally manipulating one for me, and I think that I can look back now and see ways that I shut down my son's emotions and things like that, likely from a place of just being so caught up in what I was dealing with. But but then I asked the question about, so what is the age range that develops? And then can it shift while they're still in the home? Because I think the one thing I tell people all the time, I know for a fact I got right as a mom because I can name a million things I didn't, is especially through my son's middle school and high school years. I always told him, you can tell me anything good, bad, indifferent. You can always talk to me about anything. And to this day we have an amazing relationship. I'm the first. He does. He makes. He comes and he tells you. Yes. Oh, even when he was in the Marine Corps, serving 6500 500 miles away from home. I was the first phone call he would make whenever anything was happening. And so I know I got that part right, but that's where the kind of that question for me comes from. On what's the age range that happens? And as we grow as better parents and adults, do we have the ability to maybe impact for the better? Some of the things maybe we got wrong in the beginning. Yeah, I get this question. All the time. I'm also a mom. I have two sons. They're away at college now. You know, the original patterning happens really, really young from 0 to 5. Okay. But then, of course, as life takes its course, we have lots of experiences. Right. And so when we talk about your attachment style, that original style sort of really does form in those earliest years. But then it can shift a little bit to the left, a little bit to the right. It's a continuum. It's not a fixed state. And the reason I say this is because attachment styles, as I mentioned before, are learned behavior. So as we mature, we experience new things. We discover new things about ourselves and the world around us. Our behavior adapts. It evolves the change we learn. And so can you change your attachment style 100%? Yeah, absolutely. You can do this in many different, in many different ways. Um, it sounds like the relationship that you have today with your son, uh, is, is very, uh, exemplary of, uh, the fact that you gave him plenty of space to to have that emotional attunement with him. Right. And that he could talk to you about things and that you have an established level of trust with him and that he can predict, for the most part, that you're going to respond in a certain healthy way. Mhm. Because I can tell you, if he didn't have that level of safety, he wouldn't he wouldn't reach out to you the way that he does as an adult. Oh. Thank you. He and I have had those conversations before where I'm like, hey, look, if you ever feel like you need to go to to counseling or anything, you know, his dad lived 1200 miles away growing up. And, look, I can tell people all day long, I never went without growing up. But I know there were still things that happened in my life, both in my home and and outside of my home that impacted me. And I'm a believer in therapy. I am an absolute believer in it. So I'm like, look, if you ever need to go and there are things with me that come up, those are things you can come to me with too. If you're. Like me. Yeah, if you encourage me kids, to go to therapy to like I talk about it, you know, like like learn to understand your mind a little bit better. It's only going to. It's only going to benefit you. Yeah. And I'm like, look, even if you go there and some things come up about Out me, and you're working your way through that. And you ever want to talk to me about it like you can? You know, I've gone to therapy, and I've had those conversations, those hard conversations with people and things before, too. And, and he he says, he says, well, I mean, yeah, maybe at some point I would want to do that. And he's like, but mom, you slayed it. Now I still think he could go to therapy and probably figure out there's some, some, some impact from the times I didn't slay that maybe have carried into different areas of his life and stuff. But it's always awesome to be able to have that conversation with your kid and hear that they feel like you got it right because, you know, Bev, as moms, when we look back, I can identify two dozen things in 60s that I areas that I think I failed or could have, could have been better. Right. So anyway. Which your son may or may not even remember. Absolutely. Yeah. So I think I think it's beautiful that you give him that latitude to say, hey, whatever you want to talk about. I've had a similar conversation with my son, my older son, who's 21, and I've said, you know, I know there were moments that I wish I could have done something different or like, you know, if there was something I could have done when I was younger or when you were younger, like, you know, what would what change would you have liked to have seen? And I remember his response to me was thoughtful. And he said to me, mom, I think you just tried too hard. Mhm. And I was like, what do you mean by that? And he said, I remember you spending three days to bake me a three layer birthday cake, when you could have just gone and bought something from the grocery store, but you had to make it perfect and you had to. And he said, I already knew you loved me. Mhm. And I was like, oh my God, he's so right. I could have spent that time with him instead of making this perfect. So why was I doing it? Yeah. So then that comes back to us, right? Yes. Yes. Okay. I love that. Yeah. So I'm gonna I'm gonna step back a little bit because we started talking about the the secure child. Yeah. And then I did I did mention that there was three other categories. They. Yeah, the other three categories actually fall in the insecure person. So the, the person who has an insecure attachment style. Right. So now we're going to flip gears and talk about the child who wasn't so lucky to develop in, uh, you know, inside of the home that was stable. Yeah. Or they got emotional attunement or where they felt emotionally safe. Uh, and as a response, they developed a whole set of adaptations to deal with the scenario that was in front of them. And we're talking about homes, and it could be so many different variations where there was a parent, for example, that was suffering with mental illness or an addiction, or it was a very, um, high conflict home. Right? Lots of screaming, lots of yelling, lots of arguing, arguing. It could be a home where the parents were very stoic. Those we don't show emotions, or a home where there's lots of children in the home and there just wasn't enough time and energy for everyone. Like, there's so many different scenarios whereby a child can feel they're not getting the emotional attunement that they need. It's not always that the parents purposely tried to harm the child, but there is an impact to what the child receives and what the child doesn't receive from the parents. Okay, right. So if they didn't receive that emotional attunement in moments that they really needed it, that leaves an impact. And so there's really a couple of ways that children will deal with it. There's primarily two. The first is, is that the child will on the scale of of insecure attachment styles. They'll develop what we call an anxious, preoccupied style. This is what we call the anxious attachment. This is generally someone who grows up to chase, um, romantically, partners who are emotionally unavailable. They're always chasing after love. They very much crave closeness. They often feel sad and lonely. They're very focused on whatever other people think about them. Um, they're very, very congenial. They're often the group of people pleasers. They just want to be liked and loved. Mhm. This comes these these patterns, these mal adaptations. Right. These behaviors. Yeah. Come from the fact that they didn't have consistent love. They got a little bit of love in childhood and they knew that felt good, but it was never consistent. And so it created this pattern where they were chasing after what what they that connection, right, that they knew felt good. And so, you know, your intro, you said, why do you always choose the wrong partners? This is a very common scenario where someone chases after another individual who is emotionally unavailable. And the reason we do this is because subconsciously it mirrors it mimics the dynamic that we once had with our caregiver. Right? So we think that this is our definition of love. This is what love feels like. I am I I'm going to feel anxious. I'm going to chase. I'm going to sort of, um, focus my energy and attention on the other person, um, and, and make sure that they're taking care of so that when they feel good, then I can feel good. Yeah. So we see this often in homes again where where the the love and emotional attunement was inconsistent or the child's needs were really not placed on any level of priority. So, you know, for example, the child was parented that meaning they had to assume roles within the household, uh, to benefit the parents or to help run the, the household. Maybe the parent themselves was emotionally immature. Um, and, and so, you know, we often see this in some toxic family family dynamics where there's one member of the family who sort of consumes all the oxygen. Yeah. In the house. Uh, and everyone tiptoes around this person. Don't upset them. Right. And and everyone else's needs fall to the wayside. And so the young child learns. The way that I stay safe, meaning I don't get yelled at. I don't get criticized. I don't get punished. Whatever the the, you know, the safety looks like is I is I give um, I, I make sure the other person is okay. I give of myself now. I mean, it's a beautiful thing to be giving, but often what they're doing is they're giving away so much of themselves, they don't understand their own needs. They often don't understand or know how to implement boundaries. Yeah. Um, and so it really becomes difficult when they become, uh, adults because they generally are the people who, uh, go to really extremes to be congenial at the expense of themselves. Now, if we peel back the onion a little bit, what they're trying to do is they're trying to say that I'm going to be so likable that you will never leave me. Mhm. Right. Like I'm such a good friend. I'm the friend that will take you to the airport at four in the morning. I'm the friend that if you need money, I'll give you money. I'm the friend that you need to talk for two hours. I'm there. You can never leave me. I'm such a good friend. Right? Right. So the thinking here is, is that, like, the easiest way to get people to like you is to just say yes to everything. Mhm. So this cohort of people is generally very overextended. Yeah. So I that's a pretty big description of what the anxious preoccupied look. Anxious preoccupied attacker what they look like. Is that do you have any people in your world that sort of get that description? Oh yeah. And I can tell you the times in my life I fit that description Or that I fit that description and I know exactly why. But part of that comes from where I said, I'm a believer in counseling. I've gone several times in my life and, um, I didn't know it as what you're describing it as, but as you're sitting there saying it, I'm like, mhm. Yep. Yes. And, and people I know, um, as well. Uh, but yeah I think, I honestly think that one is a is a pretty maybe when you're not the person I should say. It's pretty easy to recognize somebody that that fits in that somebody who doesn't have have the boundaries, who's always saying yes, who's always accommodating, who's always, you know, there. Um, but I also know on the flip side of that, it can be overbearing in its own way and smothering the person that's receiving all that love, all that kindness, all that. Emptying my cup constantly. Over the top of your right. Yeah, yeah. So definitely I've been her. I've been her. Yeah. And who are they? You just made such a beautiful segue here. Who are they usually emptying their cup into? Who is who's? Who's the person? The recipient normally of all of their love and attention and affection. Somebody that just takes and takes and takes but doesn't usually. Right. It's usually someone who's emotionally unavailable and and more on the avoidance side. So we talk about we talk about these adaptations in in childhood for your behaviors. You have the anxious attachment and you have the avoidance attachment. So I'm going to talk about the avoiding attachment. And as luck would have it, it's not really luck. But these two often date each other. Yeah often I believe that. Yeah. So the avoidant person the avoidant attached her. Also didn't feel safe in childhood. Sometimes they had a very smothering mom, for example, who you know everything was about her and love didn't feel safe, comfortable. It was. They felt controlled. That's a big one. They felt a lot of control criticized. They were often left alone, a lot like we see examples of emotional neglect. And what the child learns is that no one's coming to save me. Yeah. So it's me, myself and I. And I gotta stand on my own two feet and I gotta do everything myself. They they develop a great deal of trust in themselves because, well, I'm going to handle it. I'll figure it out. But they're really distrustful of other people, um, because they couldn't trust their caregiver to respond to them, even, you know, in predictable moments. And so that person grows up to be an adult, and they really struggle also in relationships because they've got certain, you know, unspoken expectations like, yeah, you know, I'll take care of my emotional state and you'll take care of yours, and then we'll get together and we'll have fun together. But but don't ask me to take care of your emotional state like I don't. You do that yourself. Right. Like, the idea of co regulation would be surprising. But that's not it was never modeled for them. Mhm. Right. Um and so those people too. Yeah. Yeah. And these are really um again the avoidance. Um they are simply trying to keep themselves safe. Um, they often get a bad rap. Like, like they're, they're, they're mean in some way or secretive. Um, they don't open up easily because they simply don't trust. And it is hard for them to be in relationships. They can change this, of course. Um, but, you know, it's it's. Um, we often see, like, the, the memes or the tropes on the internet of an anxious woman chasing after an avoidant man. Yep. I do have to mention that attachments does are not gender based, so there are plenty of women who are avoidant and plenty of men that are anxious. Um, I don't know why we pick up on that particular trope as being funnier than the rest. Um, but what happens is, is when these two get together, it's oftentimes really, really explosive in the beginning. Like, because they, they, they, they meet each other's needs, they avoid and feel so seen and so cared for and so loved and all the affection that they're not used to getting right from the anxious person and the anxious person is sort of in awe of the avoidant, who seems to be very calm on the outside. They present very calm, who seems to have a really good command of their needs and their boundaries and all these things, the things that the the anxious person doesn't have. But after they spend a couple of weeks together, they realize that their coping mechanisms are so different. Mhm. Uh, that it often will, will will tear them apart when in conflict. The anxious person will always seek closeness. Yep. Right. And the avoidant person will always try to take distance. And this is how they are trying to regulate their nervous system. The anxious person has not learned how to soothe or self soothe their own nervous system, their reliance on external sources. Again, their focus has always been on other people. Yeah. And because the avoidant person spent most of their time alone figuring stuff out alone, they need to be in solitude to emotionally regulate. So when I say that these patterns of what we experience, learn, saw, felt all of this really young in practice, how we deal with things later on, it's significantly impacts our thoughts, our communication, our coping strategies, all of this stuff. Yeah. Well, and I think kind of listening to those descriptions, um, if you fall into one of those realms or you know, somebody who is, you can recognize it from what you were just talking about, because I will say this and I don't, I don't. So I feel like I've been both I've been the anxious. I was in an eight and a half year relationship where I was the anxious within an avoidant. And I think the only reason that we lasted that long is because I didn't rock the boat when my needs weren't met, and I did. You even know what your needs were at that point, so a lot of people don't even know. They're so used to focusing on everyone else that if you ask them, what did you need? I'll oftentimes I get a shoulder shrug. I don't even know what I need. Yeah, I think maybe in the first few years. The thing is, we got along really well. We had so much in common. We got along really well. And so I don't think it was until the last, maybe three years of our relationship that the reality of what was happening really came to light. And also, you know, we never this wasn't one of my marriages. I've been married in divorce twice, but I've been single for, oh my gosh, 18, 19 years now. And so, you know, we were never married. We didn't live together. And so I think that was part of it too. They went home to their place. So they got their time and their space and I and I still had my son. And so I think there were other components in there that masked a lot of what was happening until the last, maybe year and a half of two years of our relationship, where my son was older and a lot more independent. He was a senior in high school, and all of these things started showing up. I was also growing personally and becoming more independent using my voice, which was the biggest problem of all. Yeah. So can I ask you a quick question? Yeah. Please do this. When all this happened and you started using your voice and sort of coming into yourself as a more mature version, how old were you at the time? I was 40. 30. 40s. Early to mid 40s. Okay. So yeah. Most women don't know this. They don't know this. But it's it's a new field of study. They're doing research on this. It's quite fascinating. And we talked a little bit before about this. It has to do actually with, um, menopause, midlife, the move, the transition towards menopause, perimenopause and women in their early 40s to 45 learning to now find their voice. And it actually is very much connected to what's happening physiologically and biologically in our bodies as women. Because when our estrogen starts to drop, yeah, it's like there's like a veil that's lifted. So estrogen is like a peacekeeper in the world. It keeps everything nice and calm. It lets things roll off your back. So things that never bothered you before, um, you know, all of a sudden you had something to say about it. Your your resilience to stress significantly decreases. So we see the most common time for women to either get divorces or end a long term relationship as you're describing is in between that 40 to 50 year block. Yeah. And they know that it has to do now with also the, the the radical changes in hormones. Right. Because yeah it modulates estrogen and the dopamine norepinephrine. Like it does quite a few things in our body that they're just starting to discover now. Uh, and so it makes sense that as we move into midlife, we start to have a level of clarity. But we didn't have before. Uh, and I hear the same story over and over and over of women were like, around the age of 45. Yep. That's right around 44 or 45. And then, you know, honestly, for the first time in my life, coming out of that relationship, I sat in it. I was always the person that just kept moving and shaking and stayed busy until things didn't hurt so much or things didn't bother me so much, or things financially got a little bit easier. I just stayed busy so I didn't have to sit in the emotions. And so for the first time in my life, I sat in that hot mess. I sat in it, I screamed, I yelled, I'm a woman of faith. I hollered at God. I'm like, you take it, I don't want to carry it. And I started working on me, though at the same time I started. I'm like, you need to take this so I can work on me. And then and then let's meet back and figure out who am I? Where do I go from here? All of the things. This was 2018, late 2018, going into 2019. And then it was like my son's senior year. He graduates, he goes in the Marine Corps, and I'm really I started my business that spring as well, but I was still working full time in corporate America at the time. And so it was really my son graduated from, from boot camp. And so coming into 2020, I was like, okay, I'm really going to step into my business. On more of a consistent part time basis. I'm really going to keep growing as an individual single stayed single through this time. And um, then I decided this this is the direction I'm going. And Covid hit for the first time in my life, so I'm transitioning and empty. Being an empty nester, I am completely alone and I fell in love with it. And that's why I say I can see tendencies of me on the other side. I'm very comfortable alone. I'm very confident alone. And so I think there's other tendencies of the other side that now I think exist or have. Right. I'm always a work in progress. I'm always trying to get better. And that's one thing I love about these conversations I get to have with people like you is I'm like, hmm, maybe there's still some work I need to focus on there. I mean, there's always work we need to focus on. You know, if I had again, I don't I don't know enough about the situation and your sort of thought patterns and whatnot, but it's very possible that you are securely attached, predominantly. Right. Nobody falls squarely into one box. Right. So we talk about primary and secondary attachment stuff. So it's very possible that you are, you know, primarily securely attached. But in the face of dating someone who potentially wasn't avoidant, you've been someone who is securely attached will display anxious tendencies. Mhm. Okay. Right. Because you still get triggered. You know it doesn't but but it'll look a little bit different. I would have to understand how you would for example handle conflict or some of your thought patterns around, around some of these things. But again none of what you're, you're sharing with me surprises me, especially when you talk about sort of midlife and you're like, you're like, I, you know, I had to figure out who I am. Like, where's my focus going to be? Um, this is a very, very common story, and I applaud women who take the time to to just sit in it. Right. Because when everyone talks about how you need to do the work, do the work. And I don't think anyone knows what that actually means. That's true. I agree. Yeah. Like, do do the work. So the way I define it is sit in it, understand your emotions and understand how your body is communicating to you. So in those times that you knew you were really going through it. Where were you feeling it? In your body. Because your body talks to you. And we're so good at ignoring that. And then the next step from there is reliving certain circumstances, situations and realizing, hold on a minute, I'm going to pause and I'm going to take a different route. Yeah, I'm going to do something differently here, which is going to feel terribly uncomfortable for the first couple of times because we all default back to what's familiar. Yeah. So for me, I'm much more on the avoidance side. And so if I'm uncomfortable, I leave a room. Yeah. I go, you know what this is? This is not for me. And I leave a room. My work was to say, you know what? I'm uncomfortable with the conversation, but I'm going to stay here, and I'm going to. I'm going to push through that. Yeah. Hard as hell. Oh, yeah. Yeah. Right. Yeah. Well, there's so much more to that that I, I think would add a lot of we'll have to have another conversation at. Some point. Um, and maybe dig in a little bit because I'm always still about the work and the growth and wanting to be, you know, the best version of myself and, and who I need to be at any given time will shift to based on what's happening in life. Right? And all of those things. So it is a constant work in progress. Um, and I think I knew that for a lot longer than I actually took action on it. But I was like, look, my life is shifting. I'm about to be an empty nester. I've just started all of these things and I'm like, I got to figure me out. Yes, you know, I've got to know who I am. And at the core, I know who I am. But she is still navigating through all the things, right? Um, based on based on life and circumstances and, and whatever else could be, which I think is a great segue into talking about breaking the cycle. Right? So, so we did kind of mention that your, your attachment style can change, um, for sure. And so how does that move or what does that move from anxious or avoidant power patterns to secure attachment look like. So. So what's interesting is that like I mentioned we have these Patterns in our minds. Their subconscious. Which means we are unaware of them, right? Kind of like a computer program running like an old version of DOS. You remember DOS from the 80s and 90s. Disk operating system for your younger viewers. And it hasn't been upgraded. Right. But it's still controlling everything that's happening in in today's world right now. Yeah. We the same way in which we patterned these, you know, or etch these patterns into our mind is the same way that we can create new patterns. The brain our mind is incredibly malleable. So there's this level of neuroplasticity, plasticity in our mind where we can create new pathways for new thought patterns. Right. And the less we use the old pathways and the old coping techniques, they atrophy over time, which is precisely the same thing would happen in any other part of our body. So, for example, if I want to put on £5 of muscle, I'm going to have to make a level of commitment and go to the gym and have an action plan and change some certain things. I can also decide to make changes to my thought patterns in my mind. If I have an action plan and I have a commitment and I put in the amount of time like people come to me and they expect, you know, change after one session, that's not going to happen. You don't go to the gym once and all of a sudden you've put on, you know, £5 of muscle. Yeah. But where you put your effort strategically, you can make beautiful gains in your body physically and in your mind. So what do we do? We're pattern. We rewire some of these thought patterns which people believe to be true. But 90% of the time they're not. You simply believe them to be true doesn't mean they're actually true. Right. As humans were so good at telling ourselves stories. Yes. We are so. Good. Yeah. So good. So we do have special ways in which we can rewire, um, you know, certain pathways in the brain. And then again, it has to do with identifying, um, your actual needs. Right? So, you know, the, the, the traits of someone who is securely attached is someone who understands their needs very well, who communicates in a way to honor their needs, who understands their boundaries and can hold their boundaries. So for a lot of people, they don't they don't understand what what is a what. You know, what a boundary is or you know, what are my needs, right? Yeah. What actually what actually feels me, what actually makes me feel good. What makes me feel safe. Right. What do I need in this moment? To feel relaxed? What are my needs, right? Yeah. Um, and so once we can help people work through the process of getting to know themselves a little bit, they're in such a beautiful position to then reconnect back to themselves. And we also do work in regards to emotional regulation, because people who are generally have an insecure attachment style generally have not learned the tools of emotional regulation because it wasn't modeled for them. Yeah. And so, you know, when those emotions come up and you are overwhelmed, what do you do? Right. How do you how do you handle it in that moment so that you don't allow your emotions to overtake your behavior? Right. This is where we all do silly stuff. Right. I'm feeling so emotional. So, you know, you pick up the phone and you call your ex-boyfriend, which is the worst thing to do. Right? Right. Yes it. Is. Right. Or, you know, so you do silly things, or, you know, you go to the freezer and you have a pint of ice cream, or you go gamble or you use drugs or you we do all sorts of things as humans to try to numb our emotions. But what if we didn't have to do that? What if we learned that, okay, emotions are really only 90s on average 90s? And so like you said. You've sodden it. It's uncomfortable. But sit in it, acknowledge it, learn from it, and then allow yourself to to move on. Yeah I love. That. We talk about yeah. This is this is what we do to bring someone into, um, what we call secure attachment. It's a lot of work in regards to connecting back to yourself. Yeah, well, and then like that, that's a very healthy process. Or a place, a healthy place to be through a difficult and winding process, I should say. Because for me, I sat in it. But that didn't mean it was easy. That didn't mean I didn't have to face demons. Some of my own other peoples that I didn't have to do the work to realize, oh, these things are tied way back to this or or whatever the case may be, to get to clear the room in a sense. So then I could say, okay, well then who am I and who do I want to be? And how do I want to find my way there? And and so when you lead, when you lead people through the process to get that secure, attached relationship with themselves, then how can that set the foundation for healthier relationships with others? And how does that how does that show up with others? Obviously, we've talked a lot about relationships and parenthood today, but even in the workplace. Yeah. So, you know. The. The people who are securely attached generally again, has The big benefit here, of course, is that they have learned skills around emotional regulation. So they're not the ones that are volatile, right? They're not the ones who are creating the the drama. Right. So if something happens in the workplace, something happens in the family. They're usually able to apply a level of rationality to it. Right? Yeah. Instead of dramatizing something, making up stories, you know, creating a bigger situation than it is, you need those emotionally stable people in the world, uh, who are who are calm and rational. Uh, and, and, you know, beyond that, if we're going into the romantic realm, if you're truly looking for a partner, you have to know yourself when you're sitting across from a table with someone and you're on a first, second, third date, you have to know, okay, what do I value? What's important to me? What do I need to feel? Healthy, safe? calm, all of those things because, you know, we talk a lot like in couples therapy. We talk a lot about, oh, we need to work on communication. I often find it's not the communication, it's that people don't understand what they actually need. They don't know what to say. So, you know, when your partner says, what do you want me to do in this moment? Like almost out of frustration, oftentimes they'll go, I don't know, I'm just upset. Not because they're trying to be a poor communicator. They actually don't know what they need to feel calm, so they don't have an appropriate response to give because they don't know themselves. Right. So even when I went through this process myself, I was married a long time and then separated and, and I went through, you know, this work myself too. And I needed to do that, that, um, the exercises. And when I finally started dating again, um, you know, I was Quite clear with the people that I was on dates with. You know, I value honesty. You know, I value loyalty. Um, you know, and and independence. And you'll get that for me, and I'll get and I'll give it to you. But I really, you know, what's most important to me is, is that, uh, is the honesty piece. So if I feel that people are being dishonest with me, that that makes me feel unsafe right away. Mhm. Yeah. And so I communicated that. Right. And, and I remember my current partner now, he said to me I had never heard anyone say that before. And I was like and he and I said but it was true. And he said we've been together a year now. And, and he said a year later, I know it was exactly as advertised. You cannot lie to you. Like, you know, but that is so because you have to know yourself that well to say, this is what I value. This is what makes me feel Safe. Yeah. Well, my current partner, on our very first date, I walked up and said, all right, throw it all on the table. And he said, what are you talking about? And I said, all those red flags and skeletons in your closet. I said, I am about to turn 50 years old. I don't have time for games like put it all out there because I'm telling you, I've got my own baggage and I'll toss it on the table. We're not deep diving, but we're going to throw them on the table so we can both say, that's a line in the sand for me and exit stage left. Or we can decide, okay, I want to understand this person more. I want to write, I want to navigate this, these things. And so over the next couple of months, um, we did deep dive into all the different things where things come from for us. And, and I think, you know, I've told my son, man, I would if that would be my recommendation. Recommendation for young people starting to date is ask all those questions because they're going to help you recognize. Because, look, when you're on this date and you're like, oh my gosh, this is the most handsome man I've ever seen in my entire life. Oh, he's got his shit together. He has a good job. He drives a nice car. He comes from a good family. He this whatever the things are that you're. We are in the infatuation stage, right? Yeah. But if you can interrupt that long enough to say, like, tell me who you really are. And they could feel confident saying, I'm going to put it out there with the expectation that you do the same. And we're either going to save ourselves a lot of time and heartache, or we're going to agree to walk down this path together and set a foundation for really hard communication, which is what builds really strong foundations in relationships. Yeah, it's a game changer. And so I love I love that you were also you were putting it out there. You were saying, I value, you know, in depth conversation, honesty, you know, truth seeking, learning. Yeah. You were you were you were giving him all sorts of clues about your personality in that first moment. Your personality needs. Um, and it's actually it's a great test of sorts, because if he wasn't looking to have an honest, authentic relationship, he would have said, you know what? I think you're a little too much for me. Yeah, that would have been that, right? Yep. No, you're exactly right. You're exactly right. So as we wind this down, I want to have you touch on really quickly. Um, that the parallels in how we are when it comes to our financial behavior, which can be a game changer in relationships, right. Either that healthy, the healthy way we approach many of the unhealthy way we deal with money can have a huge impact on relationships and and with our ourselves and our own financial situation. So how? How do those your attachment style, those attachment wounds impact financial behavior? So so the values that we have around money often come from our childhood. Sometimes it's it's sometimes connected to attachment, sometimes not. So you know, if you hurt, if you heard a lot that your family was struggling and we don't have money, we can't afford this. You're likely going to grow up with a much more frugal sort of attitude, right? Yeah. But where it does connect back to attachment would have to be with trust. Mhm. And potentially addictive behavior. So this was sort of like two different things. So first of all trust the amount of trust that you afford yourself. Right. Someone who's anxious preoccupied often doesn't forward themselves very much trust. But they trust everyone else. So I had, for example, clients who did not think that she was capable of buying a car on her own. It was a big expense. She was afraid to spend the money. She felt that she needed to involve her husband or some friends, because she didn't have any confidence that she could make the right decision, which she was actually telling me is that she was afraid that if by chance the car turned out to be a lemon, it she wouldn't be able to handle the shame around choosing the wrong one. Hmm. Which it happens to all of us. We all make mistakes, right? But that's what she was trying to avoid. So especially when it's a larger purchase, right? There's fears that come up related back to, you know, am I enough? Am I intelligent enough? Like, can I do this on my own? I need someone else. So that is very connected. Back to your attachment. Okay. Yeah. Now, also, we know that there's a number of addictive behaviors that people use to either numb out or to to, to, to sort of quash, you know, feelings that might feel too big. So and money plays a big part in this too. Right. So a lot of these behaviors in terms of, for example, gambling is a massive, um, issue or addictive behavior that we see most often with avoidance. Uh uh, shopaholic. Uh, I mean, I've experienced this too. It feels good to spend money, right? If something if something is weighing heavily on you, sometimes people use that as a way to, um, numb out their emotions. Yeah. Um, so, so we, we see patterns that are associated to expenditure of money as well when people are feeling emotionally vulnerable. This is I'm sure you've seen this many times. Oh, yeah. Yeah yeah. And I've, and I've been there to I can, I could tell you there are specific times when it was easy for me to spend, but it was a coping mechanism. Yes. It was maybe going through a difficult time. And then there were other times that I was overly frugal, um, out of fear, you know, and and like you said, in some way, shape or form, it was a type of shame that I was it was fear of feeling guilty that I spent it full of fear of feeling like, oh, what if? Because things have been tight, you know, financially mid-career for me was really rough. And so things have been very tight. I'm a parent. If I spend this, even though it may have been a qualified thing to spend on, it wasn't some big splurge or crazy thing. But what if then I'm sure on grocery money next month or I'm short on. So I think I navigated in and out of both of those situations for several years. Um, and I think that's pretty common. I it is with people through working with people when it comes to their finances. I see a lot of that in who they are right now. But also as we dig in and we start doing the work, creating what it is they want in the future, we start mapping out that plan, um, and build that relationship. Then more of those conversations happen about either why they were such a good saver and they're in a good position, but almost to their own detriment, they don't allow themselves to, uh, invest or or things like that to build more wealth or exactly the opposite way around. Um, you're spending like $2,800 a month eating out or going in and just having fun with friends, and you're living paycheck to paycheck and you're concerned about being able to save for retirement, then that's the complete other extreme, right? So definitely, definitely see both sides of that. Yeah. And what's interesting again is that people who are securely attached generally don't operate in extremes. We see this emotional volatility and extremes in any form of behavior. Spending money is one of them. When we're dealing with people who have an insecure attachment because there's a lot more emotional volatility there, right. So the fears are greater or the shame wounds are greater or, you know, they're afraid of like whatever anxiety or shame that they're feeling is amplified. So that's it's very common that we see this in that cohort of people. You don't see this exaggerated behavior too often in people who are generally securely attached. Yeah. And I do think, you know, there are times now I look at it and I'm like, you know what? I don't need that. But it's something I've wanted for a long time. I'm in a position where it's not going to negatively impact anything. It's not going to shortcut anything. I'm getting it right. I'm getting it. And that's reasonable, right? It's rational. You're like, I have enough money, I don't need it, but I've waited for it. Okay, I can afford it. I get okay, I'm buying it. That's very rational. Yeah. And then on the flip side too, I'm like, well, I could, but you know what? I really want to bump up my savings just the next level or I really want to. I would really rather go on a vacation, you know, with my son this, this next summer or whatever. So I'm going to go ahead and choose to put the money there, because if I've lived without it for this long, I can continue living without what? Absolutely. Exactly. Right. So it's definitely and I think that comes from the work I've done in my own financial plan, which is what led me into my business and what I do today. And so, again, it comes back to doing the work and going through those processes, recognizing those different situations when they happen. So. Yeah. And what's important to you? You know, I'll end with a funny story. Everyone that knows me knows that I drive kind of a beat up car. Um, she's a little older. She has a nickname. She's a bit of a senior citizen. But, like, we get along great, and she gets me everywhere where I need to go. I don't have issues with her. Yeah, but. But people say, why don't you get a nicer car? And I go, but she's just fine. Well, it would be nice for you. Who would it be nice for? Because I'm okay with her. Is it because you're telling me you would be more comfortable if I was in a flash of your car like that? I need to present that. That I have this level of success. By what? Because I'm fine with the car, and she gets me where I need to go. And you realize people look at things very differently because for someone else, they will at at any cost. Drive a really fancy car. So the world thinks that they're financially, you know, doing great because what other people think of them holds so much value towards them that they'll make that sacrifice. Yeah, right. So that goes back to again what's important to you. And if you're securely attached, truly you're not concerned about, you know, what other people are thinking about you. That's really that the anxious person. Yeah, absolutely. Bev, this has been such a great conversation. Thank you so much. We definitely need to, to connect um, offline here because I think the money piece we just talked about, I think there's things I could learn there to better benefit my clients and maybe where some of that's come how to have those conversations with them. Um, and, you know, I mean, also maybe personally. So, uh, we'll definitely connect, but how how can the listeners find you? How can they get more of your information? Oh, thank you so much. So we do have a website at Securely Loved. Com. We're actually a group of practitioners that work in relationship and attachment trauma space. So it's not just me. I have a whole group of people that I work with. Um, we also have a YouTube channel. Just started the channel trying to get some, some educational material out there because I think it's really helpful. Um, so on YouTube you can check out securely loved. Um, and we are also on Instagram at securely underscore loved. And if people want are interested in learning about their own attachment style. I have a free quiz on our website which people love. Uh, it's a five minute thing. It's free. You go to securely love. Com there's a little quiz and you answer a couple questions and it'll give you a starting point, an idea of where you fall, whether you have a secure attachment, anxious attachment avoidance or the fourth category that we didn't really talk about, which is sort of a mix of the avoidance and the and the anxious, but it's a good place to start. If attachment styles is new to you and it's, it's it's, you know, it tells you a little bit about yourself. Yeah. I think that's great. Thank you so much. So listen I've got today's hot take real quick. You know, we think about our money problems or our relationship problems as separate things. But the truth is there's a there's a similar pattern showing up. It's just in a different outfit. So if we can heal the attachment wounds underneath the subconscious things that we're not even aware of, if we can do the work to navigate through those, we can start attracting peace instead of pressure in every area of our lives. So if today's episode sparked something in you, please don't just scroll past it, sit with it, share it with somebody. Reflect on where you might be acting from fear instead of security. Whether that's in love, business or your bank account. And if you're ready to build that secure attachment with your finances, you can contact me through the link in the show notes. If you'd like to look at ways that you can navigate getting to a healthier you and therefore impacting positively all your other relationships, reach out to Bev as securely love. Com take her quiz and set up some time to have a conversation. She's got information that literally could change your life. Why not lean into that if you're looking for answers? Let's get you attached to abundance and not anxiety. If you'd like more of my content, you can also subscribe and follow me on chat with Nat on Substack. And until next time, remember. Focus on your five F's faith, family, finances, fitness, and fun. Because wealth starts within.